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Griff
01-22-2010, 03:32 PM
Just found this forum, good timing too.

I just picked up a real clean 1966 CA95 (Blue with OEM winker kit, nice white Buco bags with keys, 4,000 miles, org. tires, etc...) at a local yard sale.

After new plugs, batt., air filter and oil change it started, ran, drove well, and all the electrical worked A+, but it smokes pretty badly and fouls plugs quickly.

I plan to do a motor refresh on it. I assume a ring/piston kit first? I also found some OEM ring sleeve kits on Ebay, is this recommended to do too, or bore it to the first over? Also are there valve seals on these?

Looking forward to tap some of your knowledge and share my experiences.

Spokes
01-22-2010, 05:18 PM
Nice find for sure.

Before teardown, check that the crankcase is not overfilled with oil. There is a volume marking in the right top of the crankcase that indicates .9 Liters (just a tad under a quart)30W over 60F 20W under 60F. When you drain the oil on these engines you typically drain out about .8 Liters or so. If you put in a full .9 Liters after a change the crackcase will be overfull, and you will get some oil burning.

Also, there is a crankcase vent tube that goes from the top of the engine to a port next to the carb. Start the engine and pull that rubber tube off and you should feel air being pumped out. If not, the crankcase is building pressure, which will cause oil burning.


Mechanically, worn valve guides, worn valve seats and piston rings are the reasons for oil burning. If you can find a shop to press out the sleeves and install new standard pistons and rings, do it. Have a shop determine if the cylinder needs to be bored. If so, order pistons .25-.50-.75 or 1.0 over. (I had a real bad cylinder bored to match a .75 over piston, no problems)

There are no valve guide seals.

Buy new valves and guides and have them installed with new seats cut into the head. All of this sounds expensive, but it is not too bad. But find a good small engine rebuild shop to do the work. I have one here in Kentucky that did a great job and it ran me about $200.00 and I supplied the parts.

Smithers
01-22-2010, 06:37 PM
Welcome! Nice find. I hope you didn't fire if up with the old oil in it. Gotta take care of that crank with clean oil. Everything else is rebuildable. :-) I hope you can find a good shop to help out. You just need to have someone measure and determine if you can just replace the rings or if you really have to go a step up in piston size. The smokin and plug fouling is what my blue one was doing when I first got it and I knew it when I bought it. But that's basically why I did all the work on it in the first place. You got it made here with all the knowledge and our work you can follow. Just put everything in zip-lock bags when you take it apart and make sure your impact driver bits are nice and sharp so you can take out those screws without marring up the caps.

Step 1: check that crankcase is venting properly if not go to step 2 :]
Step 2: disassemble engine / take cylinder head to reputable machinist to have measured.

I wouldn't order anything until you know exactly what needs to be done to cylinder. Mine was really screwed up and I had to order ANOTHER set of pistons and rings.

Griff
01-23-2010, 09:54 AM
Thanks guys, it may be overfilled by a tenth liter or so, I'll check it and the crankcase breather operation today.

Have you guys ever done a leakdown or compression test on these motors to check out the internal condition? If so, what kind of numbers are you seeing for an average healthy motor?

Thanks for the help!

Griff

Spokes
01-23-2010, 12:44 PM
Frankly I never owned the right guage to check the compression correctly on the CA95 I rebuilt. But, with an old compression guage, the type used on old V8's by holding the guage tight into the cylinder hole, I got 105lbs after 5or six rotations using the electric starter. I think I did not get an exact reading. The bike ran fine. The manual, which you can download a copy from this forum, says the CA95 should get 130lbs.

From the "old days" you would take a compression reading, then add some oil to the cylinder (few ml's just to coat the top of the piston). If your compression increased, your rings were worn, if not, your valves may be bad or not seated.

Change the oil first. 30wt non detergert oil is best, I ran 30wt diesel in mine.
Measure the oil that has drained out and compensate the fill against the suggested capacity (.9L) While your at it, look at the magnetic post in your oil drain plug. Oily powder like "stuff" is common, slivers could mean trouble, big slivers could mean bearing failure imminate. Also look at the oil and check for a silver like ploom. You should not have too much. Don't be afraid to change your oil often.

By the way, you also have a centrifical filter(sp) behind the right side cover. Remove the screws, pry the cover off..carefully. You will see a plate with 4 screws, remove the screws and pop the top off. Inside you will see sludge. Hope it is not plugged, remove the sludge and reassemble. This step is done once in a while and not every oil change. And of course, check that crankcase vent tube and make sure it's pumping out air.

Griff
01-25-2010, 04:56 PM
Ok, the crankcase breather is working just fine, and the oil is not (was not) overfilled.

I adjusted the valves today too, they were a bit off , but not too bad. I brought them into spec, no difference, still smoking.

So it looks like I'm tearing the motor down. I figure I'll do the whole thing since this thing is in such pristine condition, it'll be worth it.

I need a source for the new valves ( and while I can find the pistons/rings/sleeves on Ebay no problem, any recommendations on good sellers you guys have worked with would be great too).

Oh, here's a few pics of the bike with the Buco bags removed. Gotta toss on some new tires and tubes too, they're original...ouch..

Spokes
01-25-2010, 05:34 PM
I bought valves, guides, pistons & rings from ebay as well. I did not buy sleeves, although I still think it is a good idea, but I can't say if it makes a difference overall. A good small engine machine shop can bore the cylinders and do the valve seat cut and fit the valves. But take the top end to the shop and get things measured first, you might just need rings. The engine is easy, I have one broken down now to every nut & bolt. In my case the valves look fine and I may just replace the rings, seals, gaskets and I am ready to reinstall when I get the frame( I am building one up from scratch)

I have a REAL WILD QUESTION! This may be far fetched, outragious, but I gotta ask......What color is the gas in the tank?

If someone overspiked the gas with STA-BIL the fuel would be RED, IF it was overspiked...it would give you that "burn oil exaust"....

If someone put a 2-Cycle oil mix in the tank, the fuel would be BLUE or GREEN. IF 2-cycle oil were in the fuel...it would give you that "burn oil exaust"...

Sometimes people add 2-cycle oil in the fuel of 4-cycle engine gas tanks thinking it will prevent rust (it might), or too much STA-BIL, because they think more is better.

Before teardown, drain the gas and refill with fresh. I know it sounds like a long shot, but it's worth looking at.

Griff
01-25-2010, 05:57 PM
There was actually no gas in it when I got it (had been drained during its long term storage) Before I started anything I did a full oil flush and fresh gas/carb clean.

Also, I though it could have been a stuck ring, so I did the Marvel Mystery Oil thing to it, it didn't help at all (just made a ton of white smoke as it should) Once that burned away, the light blue smoke came back on cue.

I was wondering if running modern lead free gas could do this? Maybe some engine Restore or a gas additive might help?

Either way, I'd like to refresh this little guy the right way, the first time. On to Ebay!

Spokes
01-25-2010, 07:12 PM
Yea, it was just a wild question. Engine additives are bandaids at best and if you use the wrong one you could make your clutch slip. I would do some pricing on ebay, but hold off on buying until you know what you need. Again, it might be just rings. The seal kits you get from Asia are actually incomplete. They sell you 7 when there is actually 8 not counting the seal at the kick start. You can still buy seals from Honda for your bike. Get a parts catalog and down load the manual from this forum. Gaskets are another thing. Check with the Honda dealer for the head gasket. I have the original and a direct replacement, some asian ebayers sell you crap. Make sure the head gasket has a metal ring around the cylinder openings at least. The other gaskets that the asian sources are thin, I have a place that copies them and cuts then to my liking (thicker)

If you buy new valves and guides, sometimes they don't fit. A good machine shop will ream them to fit.

The shop I used to do my bore to fit new pistons, install new valve guides and ream them to fit the new valves, then cut new seats in the head and reassemble the whole package is: Cornett Machine 1635 South Highway 27 Somerset, KY 42501 Call 606-678-5163 and ask for David. These guys specialize in small engine machining.

If you need any pics of the inside of the engine, I have one apart and clean.

Smithers
01-25-2010, 10:14 PM
Nice blue! That thing is in awesome shape, impressive. About the additives I've always wanted to try the "Restore" bottles you can get anywhere including Wal-Mart. They make some very tempting claims. :P http://www.restoreusa.com/

Sam Green
01-26-2010, 02:40 AM
Welcome Griff, a nice looking ride you have there.:cool:
I would have thought with just 4000 mile there would not be much wear in the bores, more like broken or stuck rings.
The motors are easy enough to work on and I doubt you'll need anything more than a set of rings. Forget the sleeves, they are only needed when the cylinder block has been bored 4 times.
Also with that mileage, I doubt there will be any wear in the valves or their guides.
The worst senario is that the motor has been run with little or no oil and is in need of a major refit, let's hope it's the former.
Good luck mate.

Sam.;)

hahnda
01-26-2010, 06:59 AM
No need for new sleeves unless your bike has already been bored many times already. I can hook you up with a pair of pistons and rings depending on what size you need for $50 shipped. You will need to tear you engine down before you buy rings and pistons so you know what size to buy.

Then again none of that may even be needed. Try doing a leakdown test if you can. I have done one on a badly smoking CA95 and while I don't remeber the percentage of leakage it was substantial. You could feel the air coming out of the oil fill cap if you removed it. New pistons and rings and a lap to the valves helped tremendously. Something like 10% leakage still but many bikes run fine with numbers like that.

Smithers
01-26-2010, 07:44 AM
Yeah you can't find out what the problem is until you tear it down. And it's such an easy little engine it's a piece of cake. Like the others said there's no way you would need to sleeve it at all. Just need to have a look inside and maybe clean up the cylinder walls, clean up the valve surfaces and put new rings in it. When I was 14 years old swapping Honda 70 motors into 50cc honda bikes we would just open them up, put new rings in them and that's it! No shop manual or anything... hell we didn't have any money or the internet! We didn't even buy new gaskets. :) Slap em back together and just ride them forever and they would run all day on a tank of gas with the new rings.

Spokes
01-26-2010, 09:41 AM
What I like about working on old engines and bikes is, it really comes down to what makes you happy. I guess I am the only one who suggested sleeving the cylinders, yea, most likely not needed, but a broken ring could gouge the cylinder walls pretty deep. But as everyone suggests, tear down the motor and see what you need and go from there.

If it makes you happy to replace every possible worn part, needed or not, again if it makes you happy..and money is not an issue, then, hey why not?

When I tear down these little engines, I go through great measures to put the engine back to pristine shape...you don't have to do such a job, but, I like to do it that way, it keeps me busy, makes me happy, ain't no big deal.

If I needed the bike right now, it would be another story. That said, I agree with all posts. Tear down the engine, hone the cylinder replace the rings, lap the valves, replace the gaskets assemble readjust the valve lash and ride.

Enjoy the repair or rebuild. To me it's all about the journey.

Griff
01-26-2010, 11:46 AM
Thanks everyone, I'm gonna try and pull the motor tonight or tomorrow.

I'd love to be able to just to the hone/rings. I really bought this so I can ride around town / to the beach along side my wife who as a Vespa. My Ducati's aren't really a good around town riding companions for the Vespa!

Also, I just noticed the the Buco bag mounts don't line up perfectly to this bike (they might be for a Dream 305 or something) Before I go an fab something up, does anyone know a source who may have them already mocked up to buy?

Spokes
01-26-2010, 01:29 PM
Yes. I do. I restore the Buco Twinmaster Saddlebags and custom fab the complete hanger assemble out of stainless steel and polish the face to a mirror shine. I also build custom light sets.

Below is a shot of a standard set of Twinmasters my CA95. These bags were wasted when I got them. The muffler hangers were fabed to hang with the straight pipes
http://fourwheelforum.com/picture.php?albumid=9&pictureid=54

Here is a set of bags after the repaint (in white) but before assembly
http://fourwheelforum.com/picture.php?albumid=9&pictureid=55

Here is a sequence of a fabed part from "fabed" to polished
http://fourwheelforum.com/picture.php?albumid=9&pictureid=56

This is a sample of a black finished bag with my custom visored replacement lights
http://fourwheelforum.com/picture.php?albumid=9&pictureid=57

I have a few spare parts at this time, but no complete sets. I do special orders on all buco stuff. You can contact me by private email on this site or I can answer any questions you have about the hanging of the bags, new original lenses, keys or near identical latches.

Griff
01-26-2010, 04:00 PM
OK, pulled the motor today (what an easy 1 hr. job).

I ran into one issue, how the heck do you pull off the 14mm counter clockwise bolt on the crank at the stator? I tried an impact tool, but the motor spins too easy, I put it in gear to try and add some friction to it but it didn't work. I don't want to damage anything in there!

Spokes
01-26-2010, 06:30 PM
Remove the dynamo stator that surrounds the flywheel. Take an oil filter wrench that fits snuggly around the flywheel (like gripping an oil filter)

Have someone hold the filter wrench as you impact the bolt loose. My small 12 volt impact wrench did the trick.

Sam Green
01-26-2010, 11:08 PM
OK, pulled the motor today (what an easy 1 hr. job).

I ran into one issue, how the heck do you pull off the 14mm counter clockwise bolt on the crank at the stator? I tried an impact tool, but the motor spins too easy, I put it in gear to try and add some friction to it but it didn't work. I don't want to damage anything in there!


Griff, that was a job best done before removing the motor, bike in gear and hold on the rear brake, Spokes idea should work though.
Your next problem will be removing the flywheel/rotor. Take out the rear wheel axle and screw it into the rotor and impact, should fly off.
Once you get the cylinder block off, it should measure 49mm to 49.01mm if in good condition, if it's anywhere near 49.1mm it needs a first size overbore, (.25mm).
If there is damage in there and you need to bore, Kevin (Hahnda) has a set of pistons.
If the pistons are damaged and the bores are OK, I might have a set of standard pistons you can have.

Sam.;)

Griff
01-27-2010, 08:47 AM
Got the crank bolt off (oil wrench trick works great).

And yup...I'm on to that rotor now (will do it after work today).

I hope to have the head off tonight to see where we're at here.

I REALLY appreciate all the help here guys, what a great forum! I'll definitely try to contribute with my experiences and photos of this process to help the knowledge base here.

Griff

Griff
01-28-2010, 06:19 PM
UPDATE:

Got the motor torn down today. Found a few things of interest.

1. Those are the cutest little pistons I've ever seen!
2. Found that the pistons were a scuffed up (one worse then the other) The tops were real packed with carbon too.
3. Rings were OK (not too worn actually).
4. Cylinders were a little marred, but not bad at all. Could be oval'd though
5. The valves are SUPER full of thick, black carbon deposits. This is where the oil was coming from or sure, it's a wonder that this thing even combusted at all.

I'm dropped off the head and cylinders to be service at Kon Tiki Motorcycles (these guys are kick ass with old bikes. Check them out, they have a full machine shop there too, everything is done in house.) http://www.kontikimotorcycles.com/

They're gonna go the .25 overbore, I'll buy the pistons and rings new (anyone got any before I go to Ebay?). They're also gonna do a full inspection and ultrasonic cleaning of the head before lightly lapping the valves. If I need new valves they'll let me know (but they don't think I will).

So that's about it for now, the crank, rods, bearings, bottom end looks real clean, the rods play is in spec.

The only thing I have to do now is see how I can make the clutch pull smooth again. It may just be that I needed a new line, but it was too tight before tear down.

I already dissembled and cleaned the clutch plates, I think it's in the shaft or something (or these are just tight to pull? Who know I never pulled a new one to reference too, but it's WAY tighter then my Yamaha YA6). Any suggestions on that front?

Here are the pics...

Griff
01-28-2010, 06:19 PM
and....

hahnda
01-28-2010, 07:30 PM
I have a few +.50 and +1.00 sets but only one +.25 set that I would really like to hold on to just in case.

If you want to go +.50 over I have a set for $50 shipped. Otherwise eBay is probably your best bet.

New pistons, rings and lapped valves should have your engine running almost like new.

Do you have a manual? If not download here.
http://www.sendspace.com/file/fg6qda

Spokes
01-28-2010, 08:05 PM
[QUOTE=Griff;3453]UPDATE:

I already dissembled and cleaned the clutch plates, I think it's in the shaft or something (or these are just tight to pull? Who know I never pulled a new one to reference too, but it's WAY tighter then my Yamaha YA6). Any suggestions on that front?

One of the reasons for a hard to pull clutch lever is as indicated below:
http://fourwheelforum.com/picture.php?albumid=5&pictureid=59
When you pull in the clutch lever your actuating a threaded cam. The grease in this cam assemble has gone stiff with age. Remove the assembly and dig out the old dry grease and clean the thread and bore. a good mineral spirit soak for a day works, brake cleaner, carb cleaner and the like works faster.
An additional cause is of course a dry cable. Disconnect the clutch cable at the handle. Make an aluminum foil funnel around the end of the cable and tape it tight. add some gun oil, 3 in 1 oil or any light oil to the funnel and allow to drain through the casing (keep a rag at the other end).

And finally, clean the clutch push rod that fits inside the actuator pictured. It is exposed to chain oil dirt throw and gets a hard old oil build up. Always replace the engine seals especially the clutch push rod seal # 91206-200-000and the shift shaft seal # 91204-200-000.

Before putting the clutch back together clean the metal clutch plates. MAKE SURE you have them replaced in the basket correctly. I thing the heaviest guage one fits first in the basket.

Clean the clutch metal plates and sand them with 180 grit metal wet sand paper. One way to get the burnt on oil residue off of the plates is to get a container large enough to fit the plates, buy some Meguiars Chrome Wheel Cleaner. Boil enough water to cover the plates and add a pint of chrome cleaner and let sit 10 or so minutes. The plates will be as clean as new. Then with an electric sander or by hand, sand each side of the clean plate and with 180 grit paper and reinstall. You can soak the clutch discs as well to remove deep oil deposits . No need to sand the clutch discs

Griff
01-29-2010, 08:03 AM
Thanks guys. I'll do a full service and clean up on the clutch parts tonight and hopefully get it working smoothly again. Good tips.

I'm waiting for a call from Kon Tiki this AM after they do a full measurment on all the parts.They're going to let me know if I need to do the first or second over before buying anything. I might want to pick up the .50 anyway just to have them. There's also a possibility they may just do a hone and I'll pick up the standard pistons and bore.

Its good to have a shop that has no interest in just selling you stuff, they really specialize in the machine aspect of motors/parts, and encourage you to get the parts on Ebay yourself for less money.

Should be in "buying mode" by days end when I have all the info.