CA95 Battery Help

[Hotdoggin']

Ok, i'm totally lost. this is my first bike and i'm not sure but the battery in the bike does not seem to be the correct one and it looks to be a bit rigged...
There should be a picture here of what it looks like.

I bought a new one at RustyRiders:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/New-Battery-6N12-4A-JA-3-Honda-CA95-CA160-CB92_W0QQitemZ350206854815QQcmdZViewItem#ht_1063wt _1196


so yeah, i have no idea what i need to do to hook this up..
would appreciate any help.
thx

[Hotdoggin']

Oops forgot to mention that this is a 1963 Honda Benly CA95, 150cc.
The pos/neg wires seem to be permanently attached to the battery as you can see, and the black ground wire over to the left with the loop on the end isn't attached at all...

[Smithers]

So the black battery is the one that is in there and you have the clear yellow top battery to replace this with? The black battery is a Sealed Lead Acid type (SLA) that is for common uses and not automotive specific. These are used in all sorts of applications like lighting systems and gate openers with solar panels attached to them at the end of long driveways, power back up systems... etc etc. The voltage is correct but the amps (known as cold cranking amps in automotive terminology) which is the actual power discharged from the battery is the only thing that might separate this battery from a traditional motorcycle battery. The connectors are just blade type which have a small contact area that is easily corroded because it's not being used indoors in a nice environment like where most SLA batteries end up. So with the cheap blade connectors having such a small contact area that setup won't stand the test of time nearly as well as a regular nut and bolt battery connector.

But the SLA batteries are very attractive and price and they can work as long as they provide enough amperage. I can't tell from the picture. On the other hand you wouln't use a traditional auto or motorcycle battery inside a house like you would the SLA. They leak a little and are high amperage which means they unload lots of energy quickly, need higher quality connectors and can spark and heat up if used for more than a short period of time. SLA slowly release energy, less heat and less of a chance for sparks and such.

Ok just some basic Honda electronic facts and suggestions - I'm just going to go through this to hopefully make it simple for anyone to understand. I'm not trying to insult anyones intelligence - just going to give some advise so most everyone reading can benefit I hope. :-I

The connectors in the picture were put on the smaller wires which were then adapter to the butt connectors so they would attach to the large wires. This is just not optimal as there should be large wires to the larger eye shaped connectors that should be bolted to the larger battery terminals of an automotive/motorcycle type battery. This way the larger wires can carry the larger burst of energy (from the traditional moto battery) required to turn the starter. The connections from the old Honda taped wire to the newer red wire causes resistance... as well as the butt connector and then the connection to the blade type connector. All these connection inhibit the flow of current from the already low amperage battery. Amperage is current of course.

Anyhow, the blade connectors pull right off the little tabs that are on the top of the battery. Just grab the wires and yank them off while wiggling them left and right. Then you want to get a BLACK wire for the ground on the right of the battery. Honda and many other cars and old bikes use a large naked braided steel cable to connect the battery to the frame. This is because the whole frame is the ground so it doesn't matter if the negative cable is protected or not. It just has to be larger than what you have in the picture and the bolt that secures it to the frame should be clean and also the part that the cable connector touches on the frame should be free of paint and dirt of course.

I will work on reposting my pictures of one of my battery connections soon. I have pictures of exactly what it should look like.

[Smithers]

Honda and most old bikes also used a cylindrical glass fuse that was held in a small round black tube. This would go on the positive battery wire and be placed in the clip that use see on the left side of the battery holder. These can break and finding those types of fuses takes a little more effort. Someone probably used a common blade type of fuse because its easier to find and might look better to some. I think thats a 25 amp fuse judging from the picture which is way too high. This won't protect the curcuit well because there are electrical components that can be damaged with less current than that. The correct fuse is 5 or 6 amps which is very low. Then why do I make a big deal of using larger battery wires and ground cable? Well the amps is so low but the connectors in the picture and the smaller wire just diminishes the energy which is already low to begin with.

Also pull that black cable with the eye connector on it on the left side of the picture. See if it just falls out or if it's connected to anything. That looks more like the positive cable that should be attached to the battery.

The black SLA battery might work but because it's possibly designed for low amp output that means it will only accept a low amp charge which means the battery won't charge up nearly as fast as a standard moto/auto battery. So when you fire up the bike and discharge the battery doing so... that when you ride to the store or gas station and shut it off - the SLA battery might not have accepted the charge that it was provided from the engine charging circuit. But a standard battery gives off power quickly to start the engine and then accepts a charge quickly so that it stays charged.

I just buy the regular batteries and use the regular cables or make new ones based on what Honda originally designed. Even the cheap Chinese scooters don't use blade type connectors and small gauge wire like that for the batteries. And those are the cheapest machines out there on the roads. You can use that fuse holder with a lower amp rated fuse without a problem. But we'll show you how to get some regular terminals on there so that you can use a proper regular battery.

[Hotdoggin']

Wow that is excellent info! Thanks for setting aside the time for that. Wiring is just completely foreign to me.... And yes a pic of your setup would be great...
Still waiting for the manual to arrive in the mail...

I do understand what your saying about having larger cables...that makes total sense. Do you know what gage i should get or even BETTER, is there a place i could buy the whole wire "set up" so i can just remove that mess that is there instead of picking it to pieces and clamping together wires? Or better, what do you think is best i buy to get this wired correctly? I don't care how much that part is original, i'm mostly concerned on the quality of function without spending too much money...

I did not yet tug on the black cable with eye ring to the left of pic that is just hanging out but i'm pretty sure it is attached to something up in the frame.

I'm trying to attach another pic i took after i removed the black battery but it's not letting me attach for some reason. I'll try and create a new reply post and see if it'll let me attach.

thanks so much

[Hotdoggin']

Ok, tugged on the black wire w/ eye ring thingy and it is most def attached to something...

Here's the new pic i took with the old black battery removed:
http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i15/kellybubba/DSCN2771.jpg

And here is the new one that is sitting in my apt. full of acid:
http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i15/kellybubba/DSCN2769.jpg

j

[Hotdoggin']

Hey Smithers,
you mind posting a pic of your battery wiring so i can try and duplicate. Received my repair manual but that pic is super bad quality and small compared to everything else in the book. thanks in advance...

[Smithers]

The bike is not in my garage at the moment. I'll remember to take my camera the next time I go visit it. I thought I had pictures of the battery compartment after I redid it.. but I can't find them. Hang in there, I won't forget.

[Hotdoggin']

thanks!
this is the only thing standing in between me and the road... ;)

[Smithers]

Alrighty I made it a point to get a few pictures to get you going. Have a look at the shiny blue CA95. Everything is factory except the crazy ground strap I used. I got this ground wire from Carquest. They just have a bunch of ground straps in different sizes and this is the one I pulled from the shelf. I can't find the part # but if you print out these pictures and take them in they should easily be able to find the exact same one for you. They aren't application specific. They just come in different lengths.

http://www.fourwheelperformance.com/honda/ca95_battery_01.jpg

I was extremely lucky to get a brand new Yuasa battery too. I went into my battery outlet and had them search their whole inventory in the US to see if they could find one... and they did!

http://www.fourwheelperformance.com/honda/ca95_battery_02.jpg

[Smithers]

Make sure and put a piece of flat rubber or something underneath the battery and against the frame. It's just good practice so that the battery doesn't rub through the paint so much.

http://www.fourwheelperformance.com/honda/ca95_battery_03.jpg

[Smithers]

Here is my Honda CA160 which is completely stock and not painted or anything. It's the exact same configuration. You can get the glass fuse holders from an auto parts store still I think. They are all over Ebay for pennies as well if you want to keep it original looking.

http://www.fourwheelperformance.com/honda/ca160_battery_01.jpg

[Smithers]

You can really see how thick the factory Honda ground wire is. When you replace it or condition the old one make sure to make sure it is connecting to the mounting point that has been cleaned of any build up or crud. If the ground wire is in bad shape then it effects everything. I'm not sure how dirty the stock ground wire can get before the current suffers. As long as the connecting points to the frame and battery are clean it's ok.

http://www.fourwheelperformance.com/honda/ca160_battery_02.jpg

[Hotdoggin']

Awesome Smithers, thanks so much man!
So i'll just replace the ground wire with something thicker ground wire that has eye hole ends and make sure all connections are clean...

As for the positive side, i'll keep that fuse in line but move from a 25 that's in there now, to a 5 that you recommended.
i'll replace the slip on end with an eye hole and attach to the positive side of the battery along with the black wire that's just hanging out of the frame...
thanks so much for taking all of those pictures... you rule
Jeramy

[Smithers]

Hey J no sweat man.

You could also just grab a 10A fuse as well. If it's gonna go it's gonna go either fuse. If it does blow it's always a short so it won't matter if it's a 2-10 or 15 even. The only time I've ever had a fuse blow was because of a wire in the headlight assembly. The bullet style connectors have a clear rubber surround on them to insulate them and one of them wiggled away and exposed a wire which grounded and caused the short.

Anyhow the huge ground straps are overkill. You could just use a 10 or 12 gauge wire and that would be plenty thick. I just like the way the new ground strap looked, it came with the ends already on it and it was cheap. You should get a assortment of butt connectors and wire ends from Harbor Freight or somewhere. It's always nice to have them on hand and the heat shrink tubing makes things look super nice. Heat shrink is cheap and a heat gun from Harbor Freight is $10! I use mine all the time.

Anyhow have fun and let us know how it goes chief.

[RobG]

One note I will give you having worked with this small battery for some time now... Find a reliable trickle charger that you can use to keep that battery fresh. The bike is surprisingly reliant on the battery to complete the circuit. I can't start mine, even with the kick starter, unless the battery has just a bit of charge. This usually means throwing the bike on my 1amp 6v charger for about 5 mins. It starts right up with the headlight off. Then after about 10 minutes of riding it can usually sustain the headlight. I don't know for how long, but I only need it to pass inspection anyway :p

I know that there are circumstances in which you can bypass the battery, but if you are taking it to stock, it is best to just have some charge in the battery so you can eliminate that as a possible issue.

[Smithers]

Yeap the battery needs a charge if the bike is to start up. DO NOT keep trying to start the bike with a dead battery!! You can damage the rectifier they say. And it's just a waste of time. The battery will suck any power generated by kicking it - keeping the plugs from firing. I LOVE those Battery Tenders and I wish I had one of those when I was a kid! All I had was a medium sized charger and you can't even leave a battery on one of those without damaging it. If you put it on a big charger it will melt down - I did that once. :)

Those Battery Tenders are so cheap now and they work perfectly and prolong the batterys life as well. They make the regular size chargers and they make a smaller charger that is like a laptop power supply which charges slower but if you use it for a trickle charger/ conditioner you don't need anything bigger than that. If you buy the bigger one it works better for charging dead batteries faster but that's all.

I have a 6v and 12v Battery Tender and the 12V works good for car batteries as well. The only pain in the butt is storing these things and all their cables. I just find a box or a small canvas bag to throw them into. Just make sure and keep track of the accessories as they are easily lost. Keep them in the box or bag you use for storage or you'll never see them again.

[Hotdoggin']

Ok, so i got it all hooked up on Saturday. I put gas in the tank for the first time and tried to crank it up... no luck with kick start and when i pushed the electronic start button, it just made a clicking sound.
So Sunday i attempted it again and the kick-start worked. it started up after a few kicks but felt and sounded like it was full throttle, which was pretty intense. I assumed it was the slide adjustment screw on the carb so i slowly screwed it out and it ended up dying when i started to adjust it; then i tried again and it wouldn't start.
I went back and forth with this for a few hours and if i let it sit for a few minutes, it would start. I could not seem to find the position of that screw where the bike would not rev so high and sound like it was going to explode.
if i screwed that screw out, it would idle weak and die.... I did do small adjustments too..
So i guess one question would be, i realize the fuel air mix screw is 1 1/2 turns from all the way in but what about the slide adjustment screw, choke, and anything else that would make it rev that high?

[Smithers]

Sounds like your throttle slide is not closing all the way. If that thing is closed then there is no way for the engine to get enough air for it to run that many RPM. Check to make sure the slide is operating like it should. Just take off the carb and have a look.

The 6V battery barely has enough oomph to start the damn thing when they are charged! It's funny how slow they rotate the engine. But mine seem to fire right up regardless. The batteries don't last too long without being on a trickle charger either. They are pain in the butt!

[Hotdoggin']

Ok i did that today and it seems ok... i mean, it slid up when i pulled the throttle and when i let go, it pops back like it should...the grip and the slide...
But yeah, It seriously was reving SOOOO high when it started and i'd just turn the Slide screw out to counter it and then it would slow down and die.. it was like and either or...

Is it possible that the slide is sticking but the throttle grip still pops back when the carb is attached? Also is there a starting point for that throttle slide screw like there is for the air/fuel screw?

Also, i wasn't sure what to do with the choke. From my experience with chokes, you use them to start only and shut them off once it's started... when i did this to this bike, the bike would stop running as soon as i flipped the choke up (off).

and one thing to note, I believe this is the original carb so it's the one meant for the bike.

[Smithers]

Morning, well the only spring in the whole throttle and carb assembly is the main spring that pushes the slide back down. This is responsible for shutting the slide down and pulling the throttle back to the closed position. It's pretty damn weak IMO. Plus as the bikes get older the cables start resisting it much more so that might be a big problem for you right now.

Cables are relatively cheap and the throttle cable should be replaced if it's the original one. Unless your bike was stored in a vacuum tube like my black one was. But the blue one I surely had to replace the cable. You could always try and lube it as well...
I'm sure at this point you just want it to work as fast as possible.

So yeah, if the slide is sticking the throttle will not pop back to the closed position. The general starting point for the idle screw is like one screw out. They all are different when they are adjusted so you just have to have at it and make it work. It should not rev the engine like you are experiencing though.

If the carb is dirty or there is some grease in the slide or the carb where the slide goes into then it will stick. I've seen crappy fuel make slides stick and sometimes in 2 strokes the crappy fuel and too much oil will make the carb really act up in the way that you are describing. You just have to take it off and really inspect the cable and the carb itself again. I wish I could do it for you and get it going. I'm sure it's something dumb... but easily overlooked is what I mean.

At least it fired! But you want to be careful of revving it when it's cold. It takes half a minute to get the oil to circulate. When the oil isn't moving through the system it's causing some wear on the engine just as it fires up. And to have it fire up into a few thousand RPM rev is NOT good! haha poor engine. It won't kill it but it's bad practice to rev any cold engine as soon as it fires. When you get it operating properly you'll notice that you will hear some valve noise and a little rattling maybe as you fire up your cold 150. That's the sound from the parts hitting each other without any oil in the engine. The sound will then go away within moments. This is where those expensive oils come in handy in cars. But in the bike they will cause leaking from older seals from what I have experienced. The normal oil of today works just fine. Plus the parts don't have a large amount of pressure on them to cause so much harm. In a higher compression engine or in a car that is used every single day the increased wear will add up. Oh well that's a different subject.

And the choke, they can be a little tricky. They are only needed when cold on these little Hondas. You should never have to use it when it's warm or been running for a couple minutes. As you shut the choke off rev the engine a little bit as you do so. If the bike just wants to die when you let off the throttle then the idle needs to be adjusted. If you really can't keep the bike running as you shut the choke off then you have problems.

[Smithers]

The carb cleaning is important to how the bike runs. This is not a surprise but it's why I go into great detail on the subject here for everyone.

Carb Cleaning Fun #1 (http://www.fourwheelforum.com/showthread.php?t=116)

Carb Cleaning Fun #2 (http://www.fourwheelforum.com/showthread.php?t=174)
** Updating thread right now to include the carb dip cleaning / bath **

[Hotdoggin']

Yeah, i felt pretty bad for the little guy too when it started up at full throttle... It was my first time to crank up a motorcycle in my entire life (not including my 77 Batavas moped) and it was almost traumatizing... haha

Because i live in a very small apartment and lack the tools and space for a proper workshop, i took my Carb to a local guy that rebuilds and fixes vintage motorcycles here in Austin a few weeks ago. Limey is the name of the shop and the guy seems not only extremely knowledgeable but also quite the perfectionist. He had cleaned it and got the slide to stop sticking as is was when i bought the bike about 1 month ago. And again, this is before i attempted anything...

As for the Throttle cable, the guy i bought the bike from about 1 month ago said it was bran new.

Excuse my ignorance here but let me get one thing straight. When you say the "idle Screw should be about around one full turn", you're talking about throttle slide screw or the fuel/air screw? Just want to make sure. The diagram in the manual i have is Terrible! And the design of the carb in the pics is totally different looking than mine so i was really confused with which screws went to what until i called a friend that has 3 of these bikes... he's just learning too so he can only be of so much help.. You seem to be the Master if you will...

At this point, i'm just going to take the carb off again this weekend and just toy around with it to see why this guy is wanting to take off so fast...

[Hotdoggin']

Is it possible to over charge one of these batteries with a 6V trickle charger?
i've had mine on for about 8 hours and not sure if that is bad or not...

[3beancrispy]

air leaks around the intake could also cause over-revving, over-tightening the bolts or nuts that hold the carb on can also cause the carb slide to bind.
i recently ressurrected a ca95 from a 20 year sit and can sympathize with how unnerving the over-revving can be.
i would think that damage to the insulator could also cause this.

i started mine with 7.2v ni-cad battery from a RC car. dont think it had enough to turn over the starter (half the recommended ah as the original) but shone the lights and fired it up nicely.

trying to scrounge up some 5mm bolts for the petcock (fun)

matt in PA

[RobG]

I had an over-revving issue with mine as well that actually came from the liberal use of choke on startup. The biggest piece of advice I can give (since this ran my in circles for months) is to clean the main-jet on the carb early in the process. There are two jets which feed fuel to the carb. A main jet and a power jet. The power jet is tucked way up in the top of the carb and doesn't seem to get dirty on these old bikes when they sit. The main jet, however, gets pretty cruddy.

So... If the bike runs beautifully at screaming high rpm, but struggles and dies under normal rpm, it could be getting fuel from the powerjet but not from the main.

For me it was, it ran with the choke on, but not off. the bike wasn't getting enough fuel normally. But, choke on pulled too much fuel from the power jet so it revved out of control. I eventually got it tamed, but it would require one choke setting to start out from idle, and one choke setting to get going at speed.

Getting these two jets to agree on fuel required extensive cleaning and eventually raising the main needle 2 notches (though I also had a carb from a different bike so the mixture was probably farther off than just an old bike)


If it is still giving you hell, write down the position of the choke, throttle, and how hard it is running/not running. That will give us an idea of where 'healthy' is for the bike and what might be wrong.

[Smithers]

Rob you got this down to a science! Very good info.

[RobG]

I don't know whether I have it to a science or not, but I certainly got some practice in. I also tried almost everything before getting mine straight. Knowledge through frustration : )

[Hotdoggin']

Thanks so much guys, really appreciate the info.
She's with a mechanic now and of course is running just fine for him... Murphy's Law i guess... if this happens again, i'm dissecting that carb like a frog in science class and using carb cleaner instead of formaldehyde...

[safetyjon]

hey all!
i bought a 65 benly last october and spent a little bit of time trying to get it's battery situation figured out, but then i bought a 75 cb550 and it's taken up most of my free moto-time. i pulled the old battery out, with most of the bits and pieces, and so it's sat for the last few months while i find the time.

i'm back at the benly now and have am looking for a replacement bolt for the battery ground wire. it's the bottom bolt that attaches to the frame and it seems to be missing from my setup now. the frame hole isn't even threaded, so i'm not sure what type of bolt it'll accept. photo attached.

thoughts?

jon

http://www.safetyjon.com/benly.JPG

[Jetblackchemist]

That's not the battery ground spot; that's where one of the engine mounting bolts slide through.

[safetyjon]

i thought it looked awkward, too, but then i took a look at some of the photos on page one of this thread. everyone's got their ground bolted to that hole.

[Jetblackchemist]

Any spot you could anchor it to the frame is a potential ground spot, make sure where ever you decide to ground; contacts bare metal for a good ground. Electricity flows across the surface of metal not inside of it. If you decide to make your ground there; i'd suggest the mounting bolt go in other side first, that way you have to remove just the nut and not the whole bolt, if you need to change or replace the ground wire.

[ByTheLake]

Electricity flows across the surface of metal not inside of it.The "skin effect" you're referring to is correct for alternating current (AC) only, not for DC. DC electron flow tends to be equally distributed throughout the conductor material.

[Jetblackchemist]

In my engineering for electricity class, the skinning effect was the resistance value of the material that electricity was supposed to flow across. That the difference between AC and DC when applied to metal was its frequency in ferrous and non-ferrous material due to the skinning effect, such as DC welding works better with non-ferrous materials like aluminum as a rod instead of iron.

I was taught that all electricity flows over the surface, whether it was AC or DC didn't matter. There could however be different resistance value depths depending on the material were penetration is involved; the difference was most likely nil, since that was never covered.

[ByTheLake]

The skin effect is largely driven by the counter electro-motive force (counter EMF), which tends to be greatest at the center of the conductor, forcing electrons to the outer edges of the conductor. It's the AC that creates the counter EMF. No skin effect with DC, but we've really taken this thread into the ditch, huh?

[Jetblackchemist]

Meh, the forum has been slow lately...nothing wrong with some debate. ;) I have the feeling we are describing somewhat the same thing, just using different terms, the type of metal plays the largest part in whats happening...electricity falls under the theory label, so not much of it is written in stone. Quantum mechanics, super conductivity and thermal dynamics like to throw a lot of things for a loop.

If you really want to see some bizarre but fascinating shit check this link out on the Hutchison Effect: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wJYce3I8OE

I longer one explaining how this mad scientist :cool: did in his garage http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LD__KJJhRQI&feature=related